On Request: Weird Mormon Stuff
It looks like I’m taking requests now.
I received the following message at one of the various goofy billboards I frequent.
Do you take requests for your blog? If so, I'd like to read something by you on a particular aspect of Mormonism. The concept that we are in essence training to be gods of our own worlds which we create. I find this so fascinating, and I'm surprised whole books haven't been written about it.
This concept poses so many interesting questions.
Yes, it does, but it’s a whole lot more boring than that. Church would likely be more exciting if it were a series of “God training sessions” where we landscape planets and divvy out Spock ears. Instead, the “training” we receive is how to be more like Christ, which is essentially the same kind of training that most Churches provide for their members. The idea is that through Christ, we can become, in Biblical terms, “heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” ( Romans 8:17 ) The mechanics of this inheritance – planets and solar systems and such – are rarely, if ever, discussed.
For instance, if people who have died have since become gods of their own worlds, do these worlds represent extraterrestrials? Or are their worlds in some seperate reality?
Probably the former, although I’m not sure if I understand the distinction. Certainly they would exist in worlds apart from this one, as Mormon scriptures state the following:
“And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.” (Moses 1:33)
I think traditional Christian theology, which also posits the existence of heaven and angels and things not of this earth, would be more likely to view these things as existing in a separate reality, whereas Mormons have the audacity to locate God and His creations within time and space.
Would any potential extraterrestrials then owe humans fealty since we become their gods?
That’s not how it works. The fundamental unit of the gospel is the family. Your father on Earth is the father of your body, but God is the father of your spirit. We will always be subject to Him, and we will always be part of his family. Those on other worlds He has created are His children, too, and He will always remain their God. In crude terms, we don’t get to muscle in on His territory.
Do Mormons then believe in the possibility of extraterrestrials?
Yes, although Joseph Smith has said that “there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.” That would seem to preclude a lot of traffic between worlds. In addition, Mormon theology suggests that these other worlds are very much like this one, since, like Earth, they are inhabited by the children of God. From my perspective, that doesn’t leave a lot of room for flying saucers and bug-eyed monsters.
And since people will one day become gods, which means there will be more than one, does that make Mormonism a form of polytheism?
That’s the accusation, but it’s misleading.
There are two distinct ideas that invite the "Mormons are polytheists" label. The first is that Mormons reject the traditional definition of the Trinity, which states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all the same person, or, at least, that they are three people and one person at the same time, or of the same “substance.” The traditional creeds define this one-in-three, three-in-one relationship as inherently incomprehensible, which is fine by me, because it makes no sense at all. To my mind, the Trinity is a shortcut; it allows Christians to affirm their Monotheism and still acknowledge three different Gods, but it does so by an indefinable intellectual fiat.
Mormons believe that these three are, in fact, three distinct people, and all three can rightfully be called God. However, they also believe these three are infinitely more alike than they are separate, and that all three are completely united in purpose, power, and authority. There aren’t three separate agendas in play, and each member of the Godhead can speak for the other. In that sense, the Father is the only God, since both the Son and the Holy Ghost exist solely to do His will. So, despite objections by Trinitarians, we’re essentially monotheists in terms of how we worship.
This, however, is a bit of a tangent from your question. The second concept that gets Mormons into trouble, which is the one you raise, is that if people can go on to become like God, then there must be a number of Gods, perhaps an infinite number, who are distinct from the God who is our Father. This is more or less accurate. It’s essential to note, however, that we will never cease to be subject to our own Father and God, so the existence of these other Gods and other families has no bearing on our own faith and religious fealty. Some have more accurately defined Mormons as “henotheists,” which means devotion to a single God while acknowledging the existence of other gods.
Is this the purpose of the possibility reincarnation?
No. Mormon doctrine rejects the idea of reincarnation entirely. We do believe in an infinite soul with no beginning and no end, but the trajectory of that soul is linear, not circular. Nobody gets born into mortality more than once.
That each life we live is a class in the school of Earth, and we become gods when we graduate?
Kind of. Mortality is very much a “testing ground,” but what we’re learning isn’t necessarily how to govern planets. It’s how to be more like Christ. And, I should note, it’s a test all of us ultimately fail without Christ’s sacrifice.
Since the Mormons believe that God resides on Kolob, is the God of either Kolob or Earth formerly a mortal being who similarily achieved godhood after living many lives and graudating?
Take out the “many lives” part and you’ve got the gist of it, although we don’t know the details. One church leader penned the couplet “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” He didn’t elaborate beyond that.
Incidentally, that couplet was lifted by Battlestar Galactica in the second part of the War of the Gods episode.
What is the God/Earth/Kolob relationship? What is Kolob like? Where is it, do astonomers know? If so, why haven't Mormons suggested aiming Hubble there? If they did, is there hubble telemetry of Kolob?
We don’t know jack-diddly about Kolob, other than the fact that it’s a star, not a planet, and it’s the star “nearest unto the throne of God.” (Abraham 3:2-3) A handful of Mormons who are loonier than me have made some wild guesses as to where or what it is, but there’s just not much hard info.
How did the Mormons develop this belief?
Mormons believe that the era of revelation didn’t end with the original apostles. These doctrines are all the product of modern revelation to modern prophets.
Didn't the Mormon faith pre date the popularization of the idea of beings on other planets?
Probably. Joseph Smith was talking about this stuff back in the 1830s.
Anyway, I'd like to see you tackle this on your blog.
How’d I do?
I received the following message at one of the various goofy billboards I frequent.
Do you take requests for your blog? If so, I'd like to read something by you on a particular aspect of Mormonism. The concept that we are in essence training to be gods of our own worlds which we create. I find this so fascinating, and I'm surprised whole books haven't been written about it.
This concept poses so many interesting questions.
Yes, it does, but it’s a whole lot more boring than that. Church would likely be more exciting if it were a series of “God training sessions” where we landscape planets and divvy out Spock ears. Instead, the “training” we receive is how to be more like Christ, which is essentially the same kind of training that most Churches provide for their members. The idea is that through Christ, we can become, in Biblical terms, “heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” ( Romans 8:17 ) The mechanics of this inheritance – planets and solar systems and such – are rarely, if ever, discussed.
For instance, if people who have died have since become gods of their own worlds, do these worlds represent extraterrestrials? Or are their worlds in some seperate reality?
Probably the former, although I’m not sure if I understand the distinction. Certainly they would exist in worlds apart from this one, as Mormon scriptures state the following:
“And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.” (Moses 1:33)
I think traditional Christian theology, which also posits the existence of heaven and angels and things not of this earth, would be more likely to view these things as existing in a separate reality, whereas Mormons have the audacity to locate God and His creations within time and space.
Would any potential extraterrestrials then owe humans fealty since we become their gods?
That’s not how it works. The fundamental unit of the gospel is the family. Your father on Earth is the father of your body, but God is the father of your spirit. We will always be subject to Him, and we will always be part of his family. Those on other worlds He has created are His children, too, and He will always remain their God. In crude terms, we don’t get to muscle in on His territory.
Do Mormons then believe in the possibility of extraterrestrials?
Yes, although Joseph Smith has said that “there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.” That would seem to preclude a lot of traffic between worlds. In addition, Mormon theology suggests that these other worlds are very much like this one, since, like Earth, they are inhabited by the children of God. From my perspective, that doesn’t leave a lot of room for flying saucers and bug-eyed monsters.
And since people will one day become gods, which means there will be more than one, does that make Mormonism a form of polytheism?
That’s the accusation, but it’s misleading.
There are two distinct ideas that invite the "Mormons are polytheists" label. The first is that Mormons reject the traditional definition of the Trinity, which states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all the same person, or, at least, that they are three people and one person at the same time, or of the same “substance.” The traditional creeds define this one-in-three, three-in-one relationship as inherently incomprehensible, which is fine by me, because it makes no sense at all. To my mind, the Trinity is a shortcut; it allows Christians to affirm their Monotheism and still acknowledge three different Gods, but it does so by an indefinable intellectual fiat.
Mormons believe that these three are, in fact, three distinct people, and all three can rightfully be called God. However, they also believe these three are infinitely more alike than they are separate, and that all three are completely united in purpose, power, and authority. There aren’t three separate agendas in play, and each member of the Godhead can speak for the other. In that sense, the Father is the only God, since both the Son and the Holy Ghost exist solely to do His will. So, despite objections by Trinitarians, we’re essentially monotheists in terms of how we worship.
This, however, is a bit of a tangent from your question. The second concept that gets Mormons into trouble, which is the one you raise, is that if people can go on to become like God, then there must be a number of Gods, perhaps an infinite number, who are distinct from the God who is our Father. This is more or less accurate. It’s essential to note, however, that we will never cease to be subject to our own Father and God, so the existence of these other Gods and other families has no bearing on our own faith and religious fealty. Some have more accurately defined Mormons as “henotheists,” which means devotion to a single God while acknowledging the existence of other gods.
Is this the purpose of the possibility reincarnation?
No. Mormon doctrine rejects the idea of reincarnation entirely. We do believe in an infinite soul with no beginning and no end, but the trajectory of that soul is linear, not circular. Nobody gets born into mortality more than once.
That each life we live is a class in the school of Earth, and we become gods when we graduate?
Kind of. Mortality is very much a “testing ground,” but what we’re learning isn’t necessarily how to govern planets. It’s how to be more like Christ. And, I should note, it’s a test all of us ultimately fail without Christ’s sacrifice.
Since the Mormons believe that God resides on Kolob, is the God of either Kolob or Earth formerly a mortal being who similarily achieved godhood after living many lives and graudating?
Take out the “many lives” part and you’ve got the gist of it, although we don’t know the details. One church leader penned the couplet “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” He didn’t elaborate beyond that.
Incidentally, that couplet was lifted by Battlestar Galactica in the second part of the War of the Gods episode.
What is the God/Earth/Kolob relationship? What is Kolob like? Where is it, do astonomers know? If so, why haven't Mormons suggested aiming Hubble there? If they did, is there hubble telemetry of Kolob?
We don’t know jack-diddly about Kolob, other than the fact that it’s a star, not a planet, and it’s the star “nearest unto the throne of God.” (Abraham 3:2-3) A handful of Mormons who are loonier than me have made some wild guesses as to where or what it is, but there’s just not much hard info.
How did the Mormons develop this belief?
Mormons believe that the era of revelation didn’t end with the original apostles. These doctrines are all the product of modern revelation to modern prophets.
Didn't the Mormon faith pre date the popularization of the idea of beings on other planets?
Probably. Joseph Smith was talking about this stuff back in the 1830s.
Anyway, I'd like to see you tackle this on your blog.
How’d I do?
12 Comments:
I always thought Kolob was like 'this is a star "near" to where God lives and I'm not telling you where God lives so quit asking' type of thing.
Do Mormons believe Kolob is actually where God lives?
This is much better than coming round my house with the slideshow.
Well said!
I'm confused. (Not trying to be funny just confused).
Earth's God was once a mortal on Kolob. On Kolob this person had a God. ( I am assuming Kolob's God was once mortal also.) Is there one "Arch-God" or Prime Mover who oversees it all?
Anonymous:
Mormons do not presume to know God's geography. Kolob is the star "nearest to the throne of God," but we have no idea where that is or even what it means.
robotonthetoilet:
We don't know anything about our God's mortal history: i.e. whether he was on Kolob or anyplace else. (Kolob, again, is a star, not a planet, so it's unlikely that mortals have spent any time there.)
As for the "Arch-God" idea, some have speculated that our own God is exactly that, and that all other beings are subject to Him. Others have said that he, like all of us, is part of an eternal progression that has always been happening, with no beginning and no end. (I'd fall into the latter category.)
The fact is that we just don't know, because there's very little revelation on the subject.
Very good, especially in language that is clear and direct. Kolob is perhaps the mot misunderstood of the questions, but you handled it spot-on. I particularly like the emphasis on that we don't know a lot of things, so much of what we describe is figurative or allegorical or our best guess. Personally, I wish we wouldn't guess as much, but I love the symbolic and figurative and allegorical aspects of Mormonism.
Thanks for giving this a run through...
Church would likely be more exciting if it were a series of “God training sessions” where we landscape planets and divvy out Spock ears.
I didn't mean it in that regard. When i said gods in training, I meant that our lives as a whole serve as that sort of training, not that we attend evening CCD classes. ;)
That’s not how it works. The fundamental unit of the gospel is the family. Your father on Earth is the father of your body, but God is the father of your spirit. We will always be subject to Him, and we will always be part of his family. Those on other worlds He has created are His children, too, and He will always remain their God. In crude terms, we don’t get to muscle in on His territory.
I guess I don't understand. If we become gods when we die, and then create planets and beings on those planets, would we not then be gods for those beings we created?
Or is their some kind of God heirarchy, where we become more less demi-gods under the one supreme god?
From my perspective, that doesn’t leave a lot of room for flying saucers and bug-eyed monsters.
Couldn't it be argued that being created in "his image" might mean that his image is sentience and/or the soul, not necessarily the physical form itself?
Mortality is very much a “testing ground,” but what we’re learning isn’t necessarily how to govern planets. It’s how to be more like Christ.
So if we don't all get to become gods, who does? What is the criteria? Who decides?
And does Christ now govern over his own world?
Mormons believe that the era of revelation didn’t end with the original apostles. These doctrines are all the product of modern revelation to modern prophets.
Does this then mean that more revelation is yet to come?
Anyway, thanks again.
P.S. You did well, but I don't like your title though.
I don't think it's weird at all, just really intriguing.
Celestial probate.
Finding declared.
Spring quickening.
The glory of the universe is intelligence.
jjrakman said...
Thanks for giving this a run through...
Thanks for asking. It was fun to do.
When i said gods in training, I meant that our lives as a whole serve as that sort of training, not that we attend evening CCD classes. ;)
Gotcha.
I guess I don't understand. If we become gods when we die, and then create planets and beings on those planets, would we not then be gods for those beings we created?
Most likely, yes. I misunderstood your original question. I thought you were suggesting that once we become Gods, we travel from planet to planet and then take over, which would not be the case. Whatever we create in the next life is part of our stewardship and our posterity.
Or is their some kind of God heirarchy, where we become more less demi-gods under the one supreme god?
Some Mormons believe this. I'm not sure, myself.
It's always remarkable to me that the idea of Godhood is what captures most people's imaginations outside of the Church, because it really isn't discussed all that frequently, and there's precious little hard doctrine to provide specifics.
Couldn't it be argued that being created in "his image" might mean that his image is sentience and/or the soul, not necessarily the physical form itself?
Yes, and it often is argued as such, but not within the confines of Mormon doctrine. Mormons take the scriptural account of being created in God's image literally. We believe God has a physical body, and that we are, in scientific terms, the same "species" as God.
So if we don't all get to become gods, who does? What is the criteria? Who decides?
God decides. Christ is the judge. The criteria is our own faith in Christ, which is demonstrated by our willingness to follow Him.
And does Christ now govern over his own world?
This is His world, as are other worlds He has created. The Son has inherited everything the Father has, and the Father and Son are one - that is, they are perfectly united, despite being two different people.
Does this then mean that more revelation is yet to come?
Sure. The ninth Article of Faith of the church reads as follows:
"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."
Anyway, thanks again.
My pleasure.
Thanks much, that was really interesting.
Now all we need is your review of Transformers.
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