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Thursday, February 12, 2009

Freedom v Fairness II: This time, it's personal!

A sequel to yesterday's post, framed around comments by Abbot of Arbroath, who begins thusly:

 
I can grasp the freedom = equality issue is a challenge. There rest is debatable.



Then let’s debate it! Although I’m not sure what the “rest” is.

"Let’s begin with the basic assumption at the root of our nation’s founding"

This is inaccurate. Freedom was for white males and don’t you dare forget that when you propagate a mythical history.


Agreed that freedom for white males was indeed the practice, but it was never the ideal. Jefferson recognized the disconnect between a slave-owning state and the concept that all men are created equal and tried to put language in the Declaration decrying slavery. Over 600,000 Americans died in a civil war for this idea. I think it’s mythical history to suggest that the founders cynically ignored the universal implications of the Jeffersonian language.

"All over the world, people have made the exchange, and the standard of living for everyone has gone down as a result."

This is contestable. Check out the GDP per capita listings even from the CIA. Unsurprisingly, the top 10 - the US is ranked 10th. Small countries with banking backgrounds hiding money are the competition. The others are small European countries with redistributive systems. 

In fact looking at the listing - there is little difference, about 3000 USD, between most European countries which embrace mixed economy and higher tax burden (a bit like the current mixed economy which is presented as a bail-out in the US) but provide health care, schooling, university, pensions and employment protection.


I’m not convinced that GDP is the best way to measure freedom. These stats show Qatar with a per capita GDP almost twice that of the US, yet that’s because the oil-soaked Emir of Qatar has a personal GDP of approximately a gazillion dollars, which tends to skew the numbers a little bit. Qatar is home to the equivalent of modern-day slavery, even though its GDP can’t be beat.

In addition, 3000 USD is a 6.7% difference, which is not insignificant. Imagine a country with a 6.7% growth rate, and you’ll see what I mean.

It all depends on what you see the function of the state to be - to make money or to ensure equitable society with high levels of social cohesion and low levels of violence. 



I hope those aren't the only two options available, as I don’t like either of them. The state shouldn’t exist “to make money;” taxation should only be a necessary evil to maintain the state’s basic and enumerated functions. That’s one of the reasons, incidentally, why Obama lost my vote early on. When it was pointed out to him that the state would make MORE money with a lower capital gains tax rate, he said he would still raise the tax because it was “a question of fairness.” So even if it means less money, he’s going to screw over the rich.

I’m all about “high levels of social cohesion” and “low levels of violence.” I get hives when you start talking about “equitable society.” Do you mean equal opportunity or equal outcomes? Because they are very, very different things.

You cannot afford to neglect the link between the creation of government as an entity to ensure autonomy and low levels of violence in societies that do redistribute. Murder rates for European countries average 1k per annum for around 60m compared to the US with 17k murders for 300m.


Correlation isn’t causation. I don’t see how you make the case that the reason people in the US shoot each other more often because the welfare state isn’t as bulky. I think this is a separate issue entirely.

There is an obvious concern. Also the UN reporting rates is of interest as the US only reports assaults crime which involve a firearm or end in serious bodily injury; other countries classify emotional or abusive assaults ( shouting in the street) as an assault. This is an “apple and pears” comparison but the intent behind the logic of report compilation is telling. 


Maybe it is, but I don’t know what it tells.

Is economic freedom the be all and end all of all of government?




Is that supposed to be a rhetorical question?

I suppose there’s more to it, but I don’t think you can separate economic freedom from, say, freedom. When the Declaration was first written, the three unalienable rights Jefferson cited were life, liberty, and property. The idea that economic freedom is somehow tangential to the overall freedom equation ignores the founding principles of the nation.

As for the be all and end all of government, it would be nice if government had an “end all.” It seems to define its role according to its whims, and the result is an expansion of government’s role and a diminishment of personal freedom. As Ronald Reagan once said, “no government has ever voluntarily reduced itself in size.”

Government exists not to grant freedom but rather to protect it. And, as Jefferson wrote, “whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it." That's nice to know in theory, but I don't see an economically intrusive government going away any time soon. 

14 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Liberals cannot distinguish between "equal opportunity" vs. "equal results." No society in the history of mankind has ever had equal results or outcomes. Liberals are determined to punish hard work and reward laziness in the name of "fairness." If that sounds ironically asinine, that's because it is.
Obama's rise to the presidency proves what has already been true for many generations -- anyone willing to work hard can make it. Period.

February 12, 2009 at 1:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In defense of liberals, the more intelligent DO recognize the difference between equal opportunity and results. They simply argue that we still have an excessive variation in results because there are still socio-economic conditions preventing more equal results.

They're probably right to some extent. Putting aside for the moment issues of race and gender, it's true that someone born to educated parents will have a leg up over someone of equal talent born to working-class parents. But how far do you go to ameliorate that difference? After all, one of the reasons people strive to better themselves is to provide their kids with a leg up. You get rid of that, and you get rid of a very important incentive.

February 12, 2009 at 1:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jefferson recognized the disconnect between a slave-owning state and the concept that all men are created equal and tried to put language in the Declaration decrying slavery.

It actually decried King George for supporting the slave trade. It was struck out because the hypocrisy of that article would have been too much even for the rebel side.

February 12, 2009 at 2:39 PM  
Blogger Heather O. said...

You realize Jefferson was a bozo, right? He sold off his children to pay his debt, and still died in debt. Never once did he even try to abolish slavery, let alone set free his own children. He treated his white kids like crap, and did nothing in France for the revolution. Total bozo.

Now John Adams, on the other hand...there's a real man.

February 13, 2009 at 6:56 AM  
Blogger Elder Samuel Bennett said...

Yes. Jefferson was a bozo. The Declaration of Independence is still cool, though.

February 13, 2009 at 12:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK -But it was the Brits who gave slaves freedom and they were the ones of whom most blacks thought favourably! As for King George - he was certified!

NB: Liberal - your general use of the word is completely off kilter with how others us the word, no? You know, free markets, hard work, opportunity cost, differentiation, etc and stuff like Adam Smith - THAT’S Liberal. This is why we talk about neo-liberal as it’s related to liberal. Now the impression I get is that your "liberal" is a negative term for someone who is not right wing? Is that correct? It would make reading the response so much easier!

I would only comment on the numerous questions raised in one sense.

I find a parallel in the way some people keep thinking that some bad people got capitalism wrong but the main premise of freed free markets is always morally superior. It reminds me of all those socialist Europeans who for 6 decades kept making excuses for the USSR. It was just bad people but the principle of the system being morally superior remained finally, they had to admit the people and the system were both b*stards! It destroyed their faith and references points but allowed them to move on. Not comfortable.

So I am asking just asking, maybe in a some small manner, if the over exuberant belief and zealous faith placed in the current expression of capitalism, well perhaps there are some inherent flaws which are not just bad people. I mean Savings and Loan and now Banks in such a short space of time?

I believe unrestrained capitalism is epitomised by abusive relations and violence at worst – so I would see a relationship in the translation of this systemic violence into higher murder and underrepresentation of general assault and violence.

I guess I would not make a good American ;-)

Abbot

February 13, 2009 at 12:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK -But it was the Brits who gave slaves freedom and they were the ones of whom most blacks thought favourably!

As they continued shipping slaves...The Brits freed slaves only as a tactical move.

In fairness, though, the British Empire did rid itself of slavery in 1833, thirty years ahead of the Emancipation Proclamation, and the Royal Navy was the main tool for stamping out the slave trade in the 19th Century.

Liberal - your general use of the word is completely off kilter with how others us the word, no?

That's a hangover from the New Deal in the U.S. Liberalism became identified with FDR's statist policies. Every so often someone like John Stossel will harrumph about this and insist their classical liberals, but it has no real effect.

It reminds me of all those socialist Europeans who for 6 decades kept making excuses for the USSR.

Show me Capitalism's equivalent of the Gulag Archipelago and we'll talk.

With free markets you have cyclical downturns. It's an acknowledged feature of the system. It's creates pain, but that's price of the system, because if you don't punish failure as soon as possible, it will come back to get you, as the Soviets discovered.

At any rate, no market failure, no panic, no recession or depression ever came close to creating the misery of the Soviet Union, even in its good years.

February 13, 2009 at 3:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thomas Jefferson could kick John Adam's ass.

February 13, 2009 at 5:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My perspective on this issue is that soap is actually alive. The problem is that most people do not listen to it as they lather up. Some have speculated, even imagined, if you will, that this refusal to engage in diplomacy has been the cause of all major wars! I object! I object! Now listen, soap gets you "squeaky" clean, right? It's those squeaks you need to listen to. It's all in the squeaks. There was once time that I was learned to dance through this method. Not knowing how much (as it were), I opened mine ears to the soap. It said, "Dance! Dance! Dance!", as if it were banging a giant staff upon hardwood floors. There was curly hair in the equation, a slight smell of musk. Then I was twirling. It was beautiful, I tell you. Just beautiful. The problem is, not all cultures use soap. The ancient Romans used olive oil. United States foreign aid should focus on the universal distribution of soap. First of all, that will create good will. Secondly, with everyone tuned in to the soap, the equation of freedom versus fairness shall be solved for all time within one instant! This is the truth, for so I have been told. Pelts of roadkilled cats do not disagree once made into soft, luscious furs.

February 13, 2009 at 7:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am NO defender of communism and I know it a little better than I would like, but it does not mean you jump boat and embrace the opposite ideology - rampant capitalism. Most ideologies I find objectionable - but can appreciate element of an analysis but the rest is not necessarily valid. Living with inconsistency and "not knowing" is part of being a renaissance human being. I question those who would equate socio-economic sciences and give them the same "Faith" that they would give to irrational but permissible beliefs in their version of a supreme being.
We discussed the polarised attitudes in some places and maybe economics are not as much a science as we could hope for. Statistically, there are with the current mode of Anglo-Saxon capitalism far more recessions and depression than there should be on a standard distributed curve.......so how the hell is it scientific? Therefore, having some deep seated belief in it, I would find a challenge.


Abbot

February 14, 2009 at 3:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Soap is good food.

February 14, 2009 at 5:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Abbot said socio-economic.

February 14, 2009 at 2:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am NO defender of communism and I know it a little better than I would like, but it does not mean you jump boat and embrace the opposite ideology - rampant capitalism.

I didn't say you were defending communism. From your post, it's clear that you don't. However, you were trying to establish a moral equivalency, and that simply does not work.

At any rate, who has embraced "rampant capitalism"? Not even George W. Bush did that. He grew the government faster than any president since LBJ. He added a huge welfare state schemes, like the Drug Plan and No Child Left Behind. He also oversaw the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, which killed a lot of business here.

What we're dealing with is a matter of degree these days. How much regulation do you want, and how much security should the government offer? Indeed, it was government entities like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that played a role in creating this mess.

February 14, 2009 at 3:20 PM  
Blogger Heather O. said...

"Thomas Jefferson could kick John Adam's ass."

As if.

Hey, Stallion, I watched "Quick Change". Not as funny as you think it is. Waaaaay 80's dude.

February 15, 2009 at 2:54 PM  

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